How republicans argue - When you can't win on facts, attack the messenger
This was an actual exchange on my facebook page, after I posted this "status update" which was just a joke from Jimmy Fallon's show. Even though you can see it on my FB page, I have changed the name of my Republican friend, who is a Supervisor in a nearby Township. And in his defense, I find that the later it is in the evening, the more bitterness and vitriol he spews, and let's just say, I don't think it's because he's getting tired, if you catch the way I've drifted:
Jamie P. McVickar: Jimmy Fallon: "EA Sports released a new version of the video game NBA Jam that features Obama, Biden, Bush, and Cheney. Bush and Cheney play the first half, then Obama and Biden try to come back from a 6 billion point deficit."
John D. Republican: LOL. Problem; there's no comeback; the hole just gets deeper.
Jamie P. McVickar: except for the part where when Obama took office, we had just lost 780,000 jobs in just the previous month! And now we've had 9 straight months of private sector job gains...and the part where the Dow has gone from 6500 to 11,000, but other than that, i guess you mean.
John D. Republican: You are sooooooooooooooo biased that it is not worth a conversation. If the most wonderful person in the world was a Republican, they would still be an idiot in your mind and would never get your vote. So much for Quaker tolerance.
Kate Fitz-Henry Wow, John, really?! For real? -I'm tempted to copy what I posted on MPR's page the other day and post it here. And then everyone will tell me that of course you're joking, and I'll feel sheepish - that's how it'll go, right?!
Judy McVickar Biased? Those are facts, John. What about Jamie's retort is biased? Sorry for butting in, but I just don't get it.
John D. Republican: Well, first of all you have to remember that I love Jamie from all my heart despite my disagreements; then you have to remember that "facts" are used by all sides to support their particular view. I would so love to say lets just love one another and forget these petty political disagreements. In fact, that is my world view, totally above politics, just love the people that God puts into your life.
Kate Fitz-Henry ...while falsely (and publicly) accusing them of character flaws which they obviously do not possess - yep, I feel it! I feel the love! -May you find a more helpful way to express that love in the future.
Kate Fitz-Henry (I will also point out that this current discussion went like this: Jamie: humorous reference. You: unfounded cynicism and implied insult of current administration Jamie: Relevant, factual rebuttal You: Unfounded, irrelevant and rambling... insult of Jamie Judy: challenge to insult You: complete change of subject addressing neither Jamie's rebuttal nor Judy's challenge, and completely at odds with the spirit of your previous statements. --If you want to have a political discussion where your views are taken seriously, you'll really need to change your tactics.)See More
John D. Republican: I did not accuse anyone of any character flaws; bias is not a character flaw, it is normal. Besides, I wasn't catering to the rest of you; this was Jamie's post and he knows me very well. If you actually knew me Kate, you wouldn't be so reactionary in your counter comments. But I do not blame you; you took them at face value.
Kate Fitz-Henry Bias? You didn't accuse him of bias. You accused him of being so unable to rise above bias that his views aren't worth hearing; you accused him of being so blinded by it that he's incapable of rational, critical judgment, and on top of tha...t, you insulted his faith.
That said, if the true intent of your message is so obscured by your method of delivery that it becomes irretrivably lost in the chaos of misplaced negativity - to the extent that it is intelligible only to those who 'know you well', then I'll also advise you to improve your style of communication, cause it sure ain't workin'.
Jamie P. McVickar Goodness gracious. I go to bed, wake up the next morning and all kinds of stuff has busted loose! Kate & Judy - nicely done. When they get beat on facts, they go to the personal attacks. It worked for Karl Rove for 8 years, right?
Craig Hughes My god, Bush and Cheney did their best to imitate Democratic spending and get hell for it. I would think you would have been proud of that accomplishment Jamie.
Jamie P. McVickar :-) Difference is, Craig, the Dems practice fiscal responsibility where if they increase spending, they pay for it, like back when the economy was humming at full speed in the Clinton presidency...with higher tax rates on the wealthy. Or you go the R way, cut revenue and increase expenses...but they pretend to know more about how to how to run a country? Let's invade countries, even if they are no threat, and lets give more money to rich folks! Nice plan. Now, as we're starting to dig out, let's give them another shot to see if they get it yet!
Jamie P. McVickar: Jimmy Fallon: "EA Sports released a new version of the video game NBA Jam that features Obama, Biden, Bush, and Cheney. Bush and Cheney play the first half, then Obama and Biden try to come back from a 6 billion point deficit."
John D. Republican: LOL. Problem; there's no comeback; the hole just gets deeper.
Jamie P. McVickar: except for the part where when Obama took office, we had just lost 780,000 jobs in just the previous month! And now we've had 9 straight months of private sector job gains...and the part where the Dow has gone from 6500 to 11,000, but other than that, i guess you mean.
John D. Republican: You are sooooooooooooooo biased that it is not worth a conversation. If the most wonderful person in the world was a Republican, they would still be an idiot in your mind and would never get your vote. So much for Quaker tolerance.
Kate Fitz-Henry Wow, John, really?! For real? -I'm tempted to copy what I posted on MPR's page the other day and post it here. And then everyone will tell me that of course you're joking, and I'll feel sheepish - that's how it'll go, right?!
Judy McVickar Biased? Those are facts, John. What about Jamie's retort is biased? Sorry for butting in, but I just don't get it.
John D. Republican: Well, first of all you have to remember that I love Jamie from all my heart despite my disagreements; then you have to remember that "facts" are used by all sides to support their particular view. I would so love to say lets just love one another and forget these petty political disagreements. In fact, that is my world view, totally above politics, just love the people that God puts into your life.
Kate Fitz-Henry ...while falsely (and publicly) accusing them of character flaws which they obviously do not possess - yep, I feel it! I feel the love! -May you find a more helpful way to express that love in the future.
Kate Fitz-Henry (I will also point out that this current discussion went like this: Jamie: humorous reference. You: unfounded cynicism and implied insult of current administration Jamie: Relevant, factual rebuttal You: Unfounded, irrelevant and rambling... insult of Jamie Judy: challenge to insult You: complete change of subject addressing neither Jamie's rebuttal nor Judy's challenge, and completely at odds with the spirit of your previous statements. --If you want to have a political discussion where your views are taken seriously, you'll really need to change your tactics.)See More
John D. Republican: I did not accuse anyone of any character flaws; bias is not a character flaw, it is normal. Besides, I wasn't catering to the rest of you; this was Jamie's post and he knows me very well. If you actually knew me Kate, you wouldn't be so reactionary in your counter comments. But I do not blame you; you took them at face value.
Kate Fitz-Henry Bias? You didn't accuse him of bias. You accused him of being so unable to rise above bias that his views aren't worth hearing; you accused him of being so blinded by it that he's incapable of rational, critical judgment, and on top of tha...t, you insulted his faith.
That said, if the true intent of your message is so obscured by your method of delivery that it becomes irretrivably lost in the chaos of misplaced negativity - to the extent that it is intelligible only to those who 'know you well', then I'll also advise you to improve your style of communication, cause it sure ain't workin'.
Jamie P. McVickar Goodness gracious. I go to bed, wake up the next morning and all kinds of stuff has busted loose! Kate & Judy - nicely done. When they get beat on facts, they go to the personal attacks. It worked for Karl Rove for 8 years, right?
Craig Hughes My god, Bush and Cheney did their best to imitate Democratic spending and get hell for it. I would think you would have been proud of that accomplishment Jamie.
Jamie P. McVickar :-) Difference is, Craig, the Dems practice fiscal responsibility where if they increase spending, they pay for it, like back when the economy was humming at full speed in the Clinton presidency...with higher tax rates on the wealthy. Or you go the R way, cut revenue and increase expenses...but they pretend to know more about how to how to run a country? Let's invade countries, even if they are no threat, and lets give more money to rich folks! Nice plan. Now, as we're starting to dig out, let's give them another shot to see if they get it yet!
Geez, I need to remember to "Like" all your political FB statements so I get updates - I missed all of the above! Great defenses, Kate!
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